this is a topic i’ve been heavily involved with because i still consider myself to be someone who prefers using technology at a very beginner friendly level, plus it’s very good when a linux operating system makes you feel right at home when it has a modern desktop environment. this is why i really like gnome, its simplicity and usability is something available for everyone, for beginners and for a lot of other people, but if you had to, say, rearrange xfce or kde for someone who was an elderly person or an absolute beginner so that they wouldn’t have any trouble using linux, how would you do it? (screenshot is my current linux mint desktop, very simple and extremely user friendly!!!)
Is that a practical question looking for a real solution right now or is more of a philosophical question?
If the latter:
Tech should be approachable by teaching users and add safeguards, not by dumbing things down to a degree users stay dumb. Options should be easy to find, preview what they do, and always offer to restore defaults. A desktop for extreme beginners may even adopt an idea from gaming and have them do a tutorial section first. It may even double as a wizard of which accessibility features to enable for elderly users.
No, Gnome is a non-starter for being as mouse negative as it is. You are very heavily supposed to use Gnome with keyboard shortcuts and it will only sometimes begrudgingly allow you to use the mouse.
I also really want to kick the app drawer in the head. Why is it two operations deep? Why can’t it be sorted by category like every other Linux app menu?
I would go with Mint Cinnamon, increase font sizes or UI scaling, switch to the Cinnemenu because it offers bigger square icons rather than a tiny list, turn off a lot of its extra features, and put launchers for commonly used applications on the desktop. Configure updates to automatic, and otherwise sand down a few rough edges and I think you’re good to go.
It’s going to sound really silly but here goes:
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Ensure their background is the same as it was (seriously, they often use it as an extra way to find things).
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Where possible, use windows icons for desktop shortcuts and mask link names to match vocab they’re familiar with.
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Have rustdesk set up with a link saying “Let <your name> help me”.
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Make sure they have their password written down somewhere.
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Make sure you have their password written down somewhere.
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Where possible have background updating, where not possible have a .sh file to do it for them.
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Add desktop links for things like downloads, documents and pictures.
These are tips for any distro when moving less tech savvy relatives over. For those that like to game, ensure your fs on their gaming drive is a Linux one as it stops weird behaviour. Also, you know, install the games for them!
I’d also add the tip of installing a Windows-looking window theme. People just want the classic window buttons (X for close, etc.), not some fancy icons.
I’m out and about right now so won’t get too deep into it as it’s easily searchable, but last I checked the community consensus around rustdesk was negative
have switched to HopToDesk, a rust desk fork. It’s supposed to be les fuckeddy
Awesome, thanks for the rec, I’ll check it out!
Feel free to replace it with the remote tool of your choice. Just keep in mind that it needs to be easy to use from the supportee’s end (double click, read a code).
Try a mesh VPN and SSH would be my advice
Thanks for the suggestion, I’ll have a play in the new year and see if it’ll work _
I have wireguard on my home net and just vnc into devices I need to access.
At my parents house I have a cheap gl inet device running wireguard so I can vpn in of they have any issues as well.
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Make it easy to change the font sizes, etc.
I setup an Ubuntu/Gnome laptop for an older person. When they asked me to make everything bigger, it took me like 20 minutes for a half-assed solution.
That’s part of the reason I switched to Debian/Plasma, although I haven’t replicated this experiment yet…
I don’t know, but I want your wallpaper.
ok sure!! i found it on reddit
artist?
ChromeOS is already an operating system for children. Like, literally. Schools use it because it works well and is really easy to use, and runs on very cheap hardware.
Agreed. Get them a ChromeOS device, or get a good refurb business class laptop and put ChromeOS flex on it.
Yes it’s not what OP is probably wanting, but this gives them a device that is hard to mess up with a minimum of training.
Ahh, so the solution is to install gentoo and customise it for simplicity and minimal user permissions /s
Chrome OS Flex seems OK. Not sure how it manages printers.
“Web printing”. Basically the printer connects to Google, the laptop connects to Google and your printing goes via Google. Why not give your advertisement profiler everything you print too?No that’s not right.
Google killed cloud print in 2020. By default, Chrome OS uses CUPS like any other Linux system.
Oops, how embarrassing. I stand corrected and tip my hat.
So, basically, WWCD?
- what would ChromeOS do?
right. so basically:
only run on ‘certified’ hardware. greatly simplifies hw support required.
hide all the stuff that gets users into trouble, or better–don’t even have it available at all.
limit what’s installable.
dumb it down.
Block or remove the terminal and judge the disastrous performance on its ability to work after the fact
I think linux mint is already there.
I don’t even know how could it be simplified more. It’s really basic.
The only obstacle there is the previous familiarity with other operative systems that could make change bard. But I’m pretty sure that if you put anyone truly novice in tech in front of linux mint and windows 11, they’ll have an easier time on linux mint.
Honestly, there isn’t much to it when setting up Linux for elderly people - in fact, I find it less troublesome than setting it up for a teenager.
Most often the issues regular users face with Linux are related to installing packages from external sources or broken updates. Elderly people tend to not do that.
Set up a stable distro like Debian, Linux Mint or Ubuntu LTS with KDE Plasma or Cinnamon, install LibreOffice, Okular and a browser with strong ad blocking, and any other applications you think they might need. Enable a simple firewall, hide the root / folder from the file browser’s sidebar, and you’re done. Perhaps set up scaling to make everything bigger on their monitors, disable mouse acceleration and set the speed slightly slower than usual.
I wouldn’t bother with immutable distros, Flatpaks are nice and all until permissions turn using a simple app a confusing chore with broken interactions.
All good ideas, IMO.
And I had to look this up, so:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okular
Okular is a multiplatform document viewer developed by the KDE community and based on Qt and KDE Frameworks libraries. It is distributed as part of the KDE Applications bundle
And I’m a KDE user! ʘ‿ʘ
Yep! Okular is amazing, and it’s available on Windows too. Install it for someone and they’ll never bother you again about PDFs or EPUB documents, it’s performant and everything works: printing, resizing, selecting text, searching, signing, adding comments. Never worry about paid PDF software or shady slow apps that keep trying to gatekeep features.
Okular is awesome. I use it even on gnome.
I think it’s a fair point that immutable distros are still a developing concept and probably not ready for primetime, but I do feel that eventually this must be the answer to make things absolutely bulletproof for people (of which there are many) who have a natural ability of nuking their OS.
Sure, but I wouldn’t expect an elderly user to be one of the people with the natural ability to nuke their OS.
I’ve daily driven Bazzite, an immutable distro, since July, and I haven’t seen the kind of Flatpak issues they talk about - or frankly any major issues, this whole experience has been way easier than Windows ever was with updates (it took me a few minutes to figure out Proton and Heroic launcher though). I didn’t know about the new Fedora update until I booted up and my lock screen was different. My experience is that Bazzite (and likely all of the other uBlue Fedoras) is fantastic and absolutely ready now.
That said, nothing is more stable than something like Debian. Unless you’ve got some hardcore gamer grandma I think the immutable distros are a solution to a problem not present in OPs hypothetical.
I agree with the uBlue recommendation. The best thing about these for OP is that they update automatically on reboots, with zero user interaction. I can easily imagine anyone getting nervous accepting a Mint update and watching all the text zoom by. You don’t see any of that with uBlue.
*I am using and loving Bluefin.
To me it’s like the old saying from Win9x days “Help, I’ve deleted the internet”. Removing an Internet Explorer shortcut from the desktop might be easier than nuking a Linux installation, but I think if the point is to be of service to absolute tech-illiterates then you need to be ready for anything, any edge case. And like you say, if Flatpaks and all that just work then what would be the downside of immutability?
I mean in theory one can make deep-rooted changes to macOS, but I haven’t once seen it fail to upgrade successfully. And I definitely wouldn’t consider Windows immutable with how many things can go wrong in practice. I’ve had more than a few customers who lost wifi drivers through no fault of their own, in one case the entire device wasn’t visible anymore, so reinstalling a driver wouldn’t have done anything, all I could do was roll back the feature update and ensure it won’t install it again. In that sense, immutable Linux might even be the best offering out there today. The only thing it lacks (besides Android and SteamOS) is a multi-billion dollar company backing it for wider desktop adoption.
@kadup@lemmy.world https://flathub.org/ how is this?
My 90yo neighbor has run Mint since before I met him 15 years ago
I’d made the default desktop wallpaper just some text that says “try typing man man in the terminal”
Pls send me ur wallpaper (I fucking love stolas)
You have to be able to do everything you need, including modifying things, updating, installing software, and fixing issues without using the command line at all, and the amount you have to modify and fix really has to be minimal.
Most of my family run Linux.
My parents run Linux Mint. It’s simple and looks like Windows. The only thing they need is a browser and LibreOffice.
Some other family members are using ElementaryOS.
The majority of PC users are IT illiterate. They have no idea what the difference between Windows and Linux is or the difference between Chrome and Firefox is.
“This icon is your browser. You know, where you can access the bank. And this icon lets you write documents”.
There was always issues when family members was running Windows. Haven’t had to fix anything after installing Linux instead. Some doesn’t even know they are using Linux. I just said I updated their PC 😅
I ran eOS for years. Something about it just seems…slow? Or maybe just behind. I found over time I was fighting the operating system just as much as I was Windows. But that may have been my own fault, as it was my first serious long term flirt with Linux
As someone who used to sell computers to elderly and people who are generally non tech literate, as well as ran computer literacy courses;
ChromeOS + something like flatpak. I don’t think anything else will really work in the current linux world. Holding on hope for Cosmic based DE.
A Distro must have
- Easy AND reliable DE. KDE has been way too buggy and gnome has been way too hard for my parents to use. Old people often have an extremely hard time learning, it needs to replicate what they already know which is either going to be Windows or OSX most likely. Cosmic should be able to do both nicely when ready.
Reliability is so fucking key here I can not understate it. The computer glitching out is entirely unacceptable. They will not be able to do any debugging nor will you likely be on call 24/7 to fix their issues. They also need security so you can’t just “set and forget” either with no updates in a false sense of stability. Older folk copy and paste shit. Permissions and stability is key here. Flatpak has a lot of potential but it’s not there yet.
No real time AV really hurts here.
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Extremely strong app selection with either android or wine app support. Wine is the most preferable. A lot of people are reliant on windows programs for things like tax filing and all sorts of stuff like crochet software and what not. Android apps however can often be good enough and are extremely simple so with a little help, and you will need to help, they can get by with android app support.
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A11y, screenreaders, OSKs, maginifers etc. We need all of it if we want to fit the “generic elderly support”
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Good performance. Elderly people do NOT like updating systems, Their systems will likely be old. And well they are old too. If a system is slower then what they are used to, and generally non responsive, they may think the bloody thing is broken.
cough cough gnome cough cough
I genuinely do not that that any DE let alone distro is an acceptable daily driver for “general people” because general people have such a wide variety of use cases and needs. Some folk need crochet and tax software, some folk need CNC software like stitchfiddle, Some need magnifier glasses and speech to text. and man, this is only the more common of things i’ve seen.
Remeber folk, a PC that does 99% of what people generally need, does not mean that it will fit the needs of 99% of people. Here is hoping to a bright future, but I don’t think it will be a close one.
No real time AV really hurts here.
Nowadays, simply having a browser with ublockOrigin is enough to have them avoid nearly all of those dangers. Also set the browser to always block notifications, I’ve had 3 different family members asking me to remove a virus, which was just Chrome notifications from sketchy sites showing up nonstop on windows.
I also see a lot of people that come in to have their PC’s fixed because of “viruses” that I am able to make go away by just turning off browser notifications. Which I also just install uBO or uBO Lite on almost 100% of browsers on PCs I work on (even if not related to the task at hand). Also I disable lots of the notifications for browsers and other programs in the Windows 10 and 11 notification settings.
Though I have been seeing an uptick of fucked up malware browser extensions that set themselves as “Your organization” policies that are getting harder to remove. In most of those cases I have found that they replace the shortcuts for the browsers to first launch shit from a self-reinstalling location in the root of C drive and/or in AppData. Shit is very frustrating. Mac OS also has some motherfuckers of hijackers that are even worse to get rid of.
Aside from those, the really fucked notifications come from the AV programs that can’t stop themselves from freaking out users. Like even if the user has for some reason paid for every single up-sell because of those notifications. They still show them shit like “You MIGHT be infected.” Though seeing those things have been great for me to point out how the user should actually cancel their subs since at that point it is just scare tactics and adware (which slows shit down).
this is not true. SO many people will download and install whatever. I still get my old customers calling me up for help because they installed some registry cleaners promising to increase their performance by 5x
Even as a (tech literate) teacher who wants to employ Linux, the lack of compatibility (using wine) with a lot of enterprise type programs and the general hodgepodge that Libre Office is, and the memory leak mess that Only Office is, I just can’t stick to Linux for long. I end up using tiny10 to use a reliable unbloated windows that can run my office 2016 and enterprise apps. Microsoft is just so entrenched and heavily serviced by thousands of people that it’s a slow climb for Linux distros to get anywhere.
The idea of elderly people using windows only programs on Linux using the compatibility layer just seems liable to multiple potential failures.
Yes it is, but it’s a necessary one. People aren’t going to go out and learn new tax software. and hell, I still have yet to find a single working crochet program on linux.
Thankfully compatibility now isn’t that bad. I actually did an experiement where I ran entirely in wine’s desktop for a week and it was surprisingly usable.
enterprise type programs
The idea of elderly people using windows only programs
I don’t think these two groups overlap much, if at all.
the general hodgepodge that Libre Office is
What’s hodgepodge about LibreOffice? I use it daily in a corporate job. There are entire governments that use it.
